Khalid has left a new comment on your post "Jimmy Carter: Brain Farts":
In regards to 8:67. Notice the difference between your translation and mine. Yours is full of parentheses in which you or your translator has added extra stuff for "clarity". All these parentheses have done is made what is clear confusing and convoluted and inserted opinion into scripture. Again, I don't need someone to tell me how to interpret what I'm reading. My brain works just fine
What I have translated as "bound by a campaign" you have as "slaughter in the land" The whole tenor of the verse has changed based on your translation. Your deceit continues.
In regards to 8:67. Notice the difference between your translation and mine. Yours is full of parentheses in which you or your translator has added extra stuff for "clarity". All these parentheses have done is made what is clear confusing and convoluted and inserted opinion into scripture. Again, I don't need someone to tell me how to interpret what I'm reading. My brain works just fine
What I have translated as "bound by a campaign" you have as "slaughter in the land" The whole tenor of the verse has changed based on your translation. Your deceit continues.
Ten translations are available here.
Eighteen translations are a available here. Click the 8th Surah, 61th verse then 8:67
| Pickthall | made slaughter |
| Yusuf Ali | thoroughly subdued the land |
| Hilali/Khan | great slaughter |
| Shakir | fought and triumphed |
| Arberry | wide slaughter |
| Palmer | slaughtered |
| Rodwell | great slaughter |
| Sale | great slaughter |
| H/K/Saheeh | inflicts a massacre |
| Qaribullah | slaughter many |
| literal | exceeds in killing |
Open Burhan provides this word by word breakdown:
يثخن - he hardens/he exceeds in killing/he weakens/(he tyronnize
A visit to the dictionary yields:
he has battled strenuously
Ibn Kathir is inconsistent:
(67. It is not (fitting) for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he has fought (his enemies thoroughly) in the land. You desire the goods of this world, but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.)
It is not for a Prophet to have captives of war until he had made a great slaughter (among the enemies) in the land. You desire the commodities of this world, but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter.
It is not for a Prophet to have captives of war until he had made a great slaughter (among the enemies) in the land. You desire the commodities of this world, but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter.
Maududi is somewhat broader.
sufficiently suppressed the enemies
Tafsir al-Jalalayn lines up with Ibn Kathir on 47:4.
The following was revealed when they ransomed those taken captive at Badr: It is not for any Prophet to have (read as an takūna lahu or an yakūna lahu) prisoners until he has made slaughter in the land, going all the way in fighting disbelievers. You, O believers, desire the transient things of this world, its ephemeral gains, by ransoming, while God desires, for you, the Hereafter, that is, its reward, through your killing them; and God is Mighty, Wise: this was abrogated by His words [and set them free] afterward either with grace or by ransom [Q. 47:4].
Tafsir Ibn Abbas uses two terms as alternatives.
(It is not for any Prophet) it is not proper for any Prophet (to have captives) from among disbelievers (until he hath made slaughter) until he conquers (in the land) by means of fighting. (Ye desire the lure of this world) by taking ransoms for the prisoners of Badr (and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty) in His retribution against His enemies, (Wise) by helping His friends.
Abdullah Yusuf Ali drags out the malicious malarkey before backsliding into truth. For refutation of the malicious malarkey, refer to Islam's Mercenary Mission.
* v.67 : An ordinary war may be for territory or trade, revenge or military glory,-all "temporal goods of this world." Such a war is condemned. But a JihAd is fought under strict conditions laid down by Islam, and solely for the cause of Allah. All baser motives, therefore are strictly excluded. The gain in the shape of ransom from captives has no place in such warfare. At the same time, if there has been heavy loss of life already, captives may be taken, and it would be for the Imam to exercise his discretion as to the time when it was safe to release them, and whether the release should be free or on parole or on a fine by way of punishment. Destruction and slaughter, however repugnant to a gentle soul like that of Muhammad, were inevitable where evil tried to suppress the good. Even Jesus, whose mission was more limited, had to say: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword." (Matt. x. 34). Seventy captives were taken at Badr, and it was decided to take ransom for them. While the general principle of fighting for the purpose of taking captives in order to get their ransom is condemned, the particular action in this case was approved in vv. 68-71.
| Ibn Kathir | fought thoroughly |
| great slaughter | |
| Maududi | sufficiently suppressed |
| Al-Jalalayn | slaughter |
| Ibn Abbas | slaughter |
| Yusuf Ali | heavy loss of life |
Sorry, Khalid, it ain't my invention. "slaughter" turns up too frequently in both the translations and the tafsirs to be ignored. Heavy loss of life essentially means the same thing as great slaughter. Seven translations and four tafsirs to your one. You have faith, I have evidence. You lost this debate. The ayeh is clear : Moe wanted loot, Allah wants genocide, making it Moe's price of admission to Paradise. .
4 comments:
Ben,
What you have reproduced is the opinions/ interpretations of others, not facts.
It is not obligatory that any Muslim adhere to any Tafsir.
Your ability to cut and paste is remarkable.
Dear khalid,
Tafsir, like hadith, serve to confirm the obvious. Learn to look for patterns.
The literal translation alone should be sufficient to settle the matter.
The most trustworthy translation says that making a great slaugter is a prerequisite for holding captives for ransom.
8:67 identifies two alternatives: slaugtering and ransoming. It tells us that Allah prefers the former, Moe prefered the latter, for profit.
The meaning is clear, beyond misinterpretation. The major tafsir confirm that obvious fact.
Surah Muhammad 4 confirms the obvious meaning with "killed and wounded many of them".
I gave you a link to open burhan. Carefully examine their literal translation.
If one is looking for a literal translation as well, the conclusion you;re drawing is still mired in your own preconceived foregone conclusion.
nothing you have put together here actually supports your conclusion as "seeking genocide".
the verse quite simply clearly indicates one doesnt take prisoners before a conflict that has in your own "prognosis"
Open Burhan provides this word by word breakdown:
يثخن - he hardens/he exceeds in killing/he weakens/(he tyronnize
A visit to the dictionary yields:
he has battled strenuously
if u put 2 and together as you purport to attempt, you are urself arriving at the meaning/translation of this word.
It means a conflict as a conflict and not a mere "take prisoners for money" excursion.
the conclusion u are drawing - genocide - is ridiculous at the least, and a blatantly deliberate distortion in earnest.
It betrays either dishonesty or complete incompetence in understanding. in either case, mere drivel.
Besides - havent we all heard similar distortions from the like who skew "I bring not peace but the sword" and revelation's "return to kill all non-christians as followers of the anti-christ" as so called "clear examples" of Christ's genocidal blueprint....
get real!
What is the role of a Prophet? Is it spiritual or temporal? Is it benign or malevolent?
It is not for a Prophet that he should ... ransom prisoners until...
What does Allah want?
(It) was not to a prophet that (there) be for him captives/prisoners so that he hardens/exceeds in killing (tyrannizes) in the earth/Planet Earth, you want the present world's enjoyable accessories/vanities , and God wants the end (other life), and God (is) glorious/mighty , wise/judicious.
Exceeds in killing: excessive slaughter~ great slaughter~ genocide.
It is so obvious yet the willfully blind won't see it.
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